JOE TORRE, A Discussion
Friends,
Joe Torre has led the Yankee charge since 1996, compiling four world championships and six pennants. Yet, few things create as much controversy in the Yankee caucus as the question of his legacy. While most like him, more than a few think he's an overrated bump on a log. Let us settle this question once and for all.
Joe Torre: Hall of Famer or To Blame for Fall?
-Steiner
Joe Torre has led the Yankee charge since 1996, compiling four world championships and six pennants. Yet, few things create as much controversy in the Yankee caucus as the question of his legacy. While most like him, more than a few think he's an overrated bump on a log. Let us settle this question once and for all.
Joe Torre: Hall of Famer or To Blame for Fall?
-Steiner
posted by Anthony at 1:59 PM
65 Comments:
A good article on point for this discussion.
Assuming we have this discussion.
Tyler Kepner makes Jayson Stark look like an illiterate boob. They can conclude the same things, but Kepner shows real substance in that NY Times article.
Now, on the eve of Game 1 for the 2006 Yankees, I'd like to weigh in on Torre. I am not a Torre guy. I've made complaints constantly throughout the last five years. Now I certainly don't blame Torre for our failure to win a championship lately, but my feeling (especially since Zimmer left) was that Torre didn't care about the job nor was he as passionate about winning as he was during the glory days of '96-'00. I won't cite chapter and verse the things that Torre did wrong, because to be honest he's only human and everyone makes mistakes, especially in baseball!
My biggest gripe was, like I said above, Torre seemed dispassionate, disinterested and miserable. I wanted a guy like Bobby Valentine- a hands-on leader. With all the talent on this team, we should have done a lot more than reach (and lose) the WS in 2003 and that's it. From the outside looking in, it sounds like I'm a typical crybaby Yanks fan, who feels he is entitled to a WS ring every year. Nope, I just know that we had the talent and the potential to do a lot more than go ringless these past several years. Is it Torre's fault? Nope. But for a guy who is lauded as one of the Greatest Manager's of All-Time, I remain unconvinced that 96-00 was his doing, but I do feel he missed opportunities that a better-suited manager would have exploited as manager from 01-present.
P.S. Bowa excites me. This guy will be a difference-maker for us.
On October 17, 2003 (after the Yanks beat Boston in a miracle win to clinch the AL pennant) Anthony Marcavage wrote:
"I love Joe Torre. It's the class, man, the class, and the only way you can really hate Torre's Yankees is if just below the surface you hate yourself."
Mark, I love your Conan preface! Hilarious stuff.
So far, we have two charges against Joe Torre. One, Joe has been "dispassionate, disinterested, and miserable," creating a lack of fire from a team loaded with talent. Two, Joe has been surrounded by such talent that any competent manager could have led those teams to victory.
Two just claims. Any others before I respond?
As you wait, good news tonight: Jorge behind the plate and Randy showing no ill effects.
hey Steiner, let me re-read "The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty" before you reply. I'm sure I'll find something juicy in there first!
Mark is mostly right. The Apostle has nothing tactically that distinguishes him from any other top level skip. In fact, some may judge him "tactically sluggish." What makes him great is how he handles georgie and the NY media, which just adores him. That is not easy to accomplish. Just ask bobby valentine, surely a comptenent manager who didn't last as long as Torre. Also, as a side note, phil jackson has never had it easy. Anyone who can get the best out of major league pricks like kobe bryant and michael jordan is a god in my book. Doug Collins couldn't do it.
I think Garbo hit the nail on the head. I don't know if "tactically sluggish" was my phrase, but it could have been. I have always thought Joe was a poor tactician. I've always thought he was a step behind in handling the bullpen, and I think he is generally stubborn, sticking with decisions long after they've proven mistakes. Last year, for instance, his handling of the centerfield situation was a mess and cost us cohesion throughout the second half and arguably the division series. And Francona managed rings around him in the 2004 ALCS. So, I agree, the guy can make huge mistakes.
But, along the lines of what Garbo said, he is the best manager of personalities in the game, and that's what counts in pro sports. All these guys know how to play baseball, but think about it: The Yankees during Torre's tenure have taken in every derelict with an ounce of talent left. Strawberry, Fielder, Mondesi, Gooden, Sierra, Canseco, Sheffield plus probably a dozen lesser known problem children. 3 out of 4 times, those players drop their routine and perform for Joe Torre. Part of the reason is that he has help: Jeter and Co. But part of the reason guys like Jeter and Oneill went from babies (one physically, one emotionally) to team leaders was Torre's tutelage.
When I was a teacher, there was a point when you really knew you were in control, not just in the disciplinary sense, but overall. That was when the students wanted to do well because they didn't want to disappoint you. They had that much respect for you. That's what Torre does for a ballclub. These selfish players, who couldn't give a damn about their previous teams, come in and are suddenly walking and talking like Yankees. I give Torre most of the credit for that, and those bit players have made the difference in the Yankee's recent dynasty.
As for Mark's point, the Braves have had teams just as good as the Yankees relative to their competition over the last 18 years, but have won only one World Series. Cox is good, but the Braves rarely rise to the occassion. For the first half of Torre's tenure, the exact opposite was true. And even in the last five years, the Yankees never go down without a fierce fight. The Brave all too often don't even show up for their playoff series. It's become endemic with them.
As for being too grumpy, would Bernie Williams and Jeter respond to Bobby Valentine or would they just think he was a flake? That firing up stuff is better left for the little league dugout. And because Torre is always staid, the rare cases when he does lose it actually have an effect. He doesn't cry wolf like Sweet Lou, Bowa, or Valentine, all of whom are good managers, but don't rise to the level of The Apostle.
Ask yourselves this question: If Torre was managing the Marlins in 2003 or the Diamondbacks in 2001, would he have taken those teams to the WS?
Generically the point here is that as a "manager" he is not one of the game's greatest by any stretch. Tony and others call this being a "tactician" but that's a bit too dry a term for my liking. A motivator, a tactician, a leader, a "boss" if you will-- these are the elements I consider when I think of a manager.
Torre's greatest skill is protecting his players. In NY, that's one of the most important traits a manager can possess. But to say "these guys know how to play baseball already" implies that there is no need to "coach" the players. I disagree.
It has been uncanny these past few years how our "talented" players have for the most part curled up into little balls when the postseason rolls around. Are we employing a bunch of cowards? Are our players overrated? What's the deal? Where's the motivation? Where's the Preparation? Oh, we've had a lot of tough injuries, etc. happen to us, but all teams suffer those misfortunes.
This relates to Torre in a circumstantial way, he is not directly responsible for us not winning a WS recently. But, has he helped make our chances better? Aside from running a good clubhouse, I remain skeptical.
Dude, what sort of motivation do you want? Clubhouse speeches? Come on. And preparation? What does that mean? More bunting drills for Gary Sheffield?
If Torre barked more, would A-Rod have hit last post-season? Soriano in 2003? It's just silly.
If you want to see lack of drive, see the Braves. Torre's Yankees have always fought until the last out. That's another hallmark of his reign.
Steiner, we disagree, but please don't diminish my arguments with foolish mischaracterizations. I don't suggest Torre should be a screaming loon like a Pinella or a Bowa. You can motivate through other means, and Torre has done so himself in the past. Recently, however, (since Zimmer left) Torre has not exhibited the same type of passion or interest in the game or his job. He was more an administrator than a hands-on leader. You disagree. Fine. Guess what, what does it matter?
The last line in my comment above was silly, I retract that.
In my mind, if we all agree Joe Torre is not a fantastic tactician, and perhaps he's a mediocre one at best, I think that alone can put doubt in the minds of some players as to their skipper's abilities. I don't know, say Torre doesn't put Javy Vazquez in against Johnny Damon in the '04 ALCS. Maybe the game is still close enough that we can come back and win the darned thing. Maybe not. The point is that when you make mistakes as a manager in key situations, people around you will either doubt you or themselves. Either way, whomever they blame, the players lose that edge (faith in their ability to win) and motivation.
Mark, last year, no doubt. But there were many, many seasons the Braves had the best record or second best record in the regular season and lost in the division series. Someone should look it up.
Adam, remember this quote from awhile back:
"Bowa excites me. This guy will be a difference-maker for us."
That was from...yesterday. In this discussion. Now Bowa is a screaming loon and putting him forward is a mischaracterization? And I think Bowa and Pinella are good managers, especially with young teams. But not with a team of veterans like the Yankees.
You aren't providing any examples. What did Joe do in the past to motivate that he's stopped doing?
And this quote:
"The point is that when you make mistakes as a manager in key situations, people around you will either doubt you or themselves. Either way, whomever they blame, the players lose that edge (faith in their ability to win) and motivation."
Have any Yankees doubted Torre? Or themselves? Is lack of confidence why we haven't won in five years? I just don't see it.
Mark, the Braves have lost in the division series five of the last six seasons.
Yep, going up 3-0 in the ALCS in 2004 only to lose 4 straight is a black mark on Torre and the entire Yankee team. You don't win those games by being a nice person. You certainly lose them though when you don't pull pitchers in certain situations. Also, that was the season when Torre used Mo and Gordon almost every single game, wearing them down by the postseason. Brilliant tactician.
Bowa excites me as a coach, I didn't anywhere say "I wish Bowa was the manager of the team." Again, read the words man!
How can you say that Torre has underachieved? Torre has managed the Yankees for 10 years, won six pennants and four world series. That's among the greatest managerial accomplishments of all time.
Cox has one World Series and five pennants in 15 years of playoff competition. That's great, but the Braves have never been anything more than a NL East dynasty. Not exactly the stuff of legend.
If you want to argue that there is not much difference between them, fair enough, but it's in spite of their accomplishments, not evidenced by them.
This quote: "Yep, going up 3-0 in the ALCS in 2004 only to lose 4 straight is a black mark on Torre and the entire Yankee team."
I completely agree. But what are you trying to prove with it? That the team lost confidence in itself? That this loss of confidence was brought about by Torre's poor decision-making?
You're now saying he's not a brilliant tactictian. That was conceded hours ago. But what about your claims that since Zimmer left Torre hasn't exhibited the same "passion for the game or interest in his job"? Is that just a gut feeling?
As for the Bowa comment, I guess you're saying he's a "difference maker" as a coach but a "screaming loon" as a manager. Whatever. Bowa was a good manager, but his rah-rah style got old quick, and I don't think it would be effective on a veteran team like the Yankees.
Comparing Cox and Torre is like Tony says, something you do in spite of their accomplishments. Both the Braves and Yankees are starkly different teams that face different opponents-- I would shy away from putting their postseason "accomplishments" side-by-side.
Torre has not underachieved as much as he has not overachieved given the talent and obscene amounts of support he's received from the Yankees organization. I'm not basing this only on the 2004 ALCS, but that failure is a prime example of Torre not rising to the occasion. Heck, the 2003 ALCS could have gone the other way easily if Boone doesn't hit that miracle HR. In addition, we looked clueless in the 2003 WS-- our hitting disappeared (even worse than our terrible batting in the ALCS) and our pitchers broke down. It's not all Torre's fault, but Torre is not an Apostle and he is not the Second Coming.
Torre is a good man, a smart fella and a pretty good manager-- he is not Casey Stengel, Sparky Anderson, Tony LaRussa, or Tommy Lasorda, so let's not kid ourselves.
Let the Bowa thing go!
Seriously though, I like Bowa's passion but that does not imply that in my mind great managers are screaming loons (a funny term nonetheless). Bowa makes a difference where in recent years there hasn't been any passion from the coaches. It's like watching spectators at a chess tourney sitting on that bench!
Read above- Torre is a good manager, but not a top 10 of all-time (or "great" as some would say).
Right, because Casey Stengel didn't have any talent around him. And those Big Red Machine teams, a bunch of underdogs there for Sparky. Same with the Oakland teams of the late 1990s. Lasorda's 1988 Dodger team and Torre's 1996 Yankee team were the best managed teams of the group. I don't think those guys have anything on Joe, and none of them managed under the same pressure.
I will say this, however. If I was playing one game, all things being equal, Joe Torre would not be my choice for manager. I'd probably take Mike Scioscia. But over the course of a 162+ game season, there is no one better than Torre.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
So the team's failures (1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005) we'll ignore but we will galdly focus only on those WS-winning years. OK, if that's the case then you're right, we got nothin' on Torre.
You know some people say Bill Clinton was a great president during that economic boom of the 1990's too.
Well, I never said we should ignore those "failed" years. But you can hardly put LaRussa forward as a "great" manager (1 World Series victory in probably a dozen playoff seasons with very good teams) and say Joe is mediocre because he's only won the World Series 40% of the time he's managed in the playoffs. I'm not saying you don't have an argument, I'm just saying that you're not making it consistently.
I'm at work. Wait till I get home and can focus my arguments more consistently.
Ok, I'm not here to take part in TONY LA RUSSA, A Discussion." Consider his name withdrawn from the list of greats for the purposes of this discussion.
One thing hit me as I was driving home, thinking about consistency- I remember last season, after our terrible start, Torre and Cashman were approached by Steinbrenner and were asked "What do you guys need to win the World Series?" Torre told Steinbrenner "We've got all the guys we need." And then came Melky, Wang, Small, Chacon, and a lot of changes. I give Cahsman a lot of credit for engineering internal changes and for acquiring Chacon. The front office did a good job of adjusting to the sudden holes that opened up. But out of that situation, one thing always bothered me: Bernie Williams in CF. For *years* we've all seen the decline of Bernie's defense and sadly on offense too. Joe Torre is a class guy and he would never sandbag Bernie or talk behind his back to Cashman and pull him from the lineup. Still, Bernie became a liability as an everyday CF. Torre did nothing to prevent this obvious situation from happening. Torre is a loyal guy and he failed to do the cold-hearted yet necessary thing for the team. Torre's loyalty is what makes him loved, but it also keeps him from making the hard choices.
Anakin Skywalker couldn't let go of Padme Amidala and he ended up losing everything, Torre almost suffered the same fate with Bernie Williams.
But Tony LaRussa *is* a great manager. Your list wasn't the problem, it's your underlying reasoning.
I never said Torre was a medicore manager, I said he was a mediocre tactician-- big difference (which wuld explain the 'consistency' issues you have with my opinions). Here's what I said:
"Torre is a good manager, but not a top 10 of all-time (or "great" as some would say)."
I think Torre is a special person, the kind of guy who could have excelled as a leader in many arenas. I just don't think of him as a fantastically intelligent baseball mind. Charisma and emotional intelligence are Torre's gifts, but enginerring victories is where he is average at best. The managers I mentioned as "great" have both charisma and baseball smarts in abundance.
I think everyone here is being too hard on Torre’s tactical ability. Yes, you’ve all given examples of when Torre has made tactical mistakes, but Adam, the great managers you mention have all done the same thing. I’ve watched baseball my entire life, and I rarely see a game where both managers don’t make a move that can be questioned, certainly in hindsight. Judging what is a “good” or “bad” tactical move is a little unfair, as things are only seen in hindsight. I’ll give a good example using a manager from the list, Tommy Lasorda. Down by 1 in the 9th with a runner on 1st, how much sense does it making to send to the plate as the tying run a guy who is so injured he can barely walk? In the World Series no less! If Kirk Gibson hits a ground ball on the first couple of pitches (before the guy stole 2nd), it turns into the easiest double play ever, and Lasorda has just blown a chance to win the game. If that had happened, that move goes down as completely boneheaded, and Lasorda is called an idiot. Instead, he’s a genius. I’m certainly not saying that there’s no way to objectively judge how good a tactician a manager is, it just all needs to be taken with a grain of salt. So much of it is feel and gut instincts, and the results sometimes cast an unfair slant on things, as often the failures are magnified and the success unnoticed.
I also want to respond to something Adam said before. No, I don’t think that the Diamondbacks and Marlins would have won those World Series with Torre, but I also don’t think that the Yankees would have won all their World Series with the managers from those teams. Each teams chemistry is different, and Torre was perfect for the late 90’s Yankees.
Adam, I'm not saying you are saying he's terrible. I'm just saying that whatever formula you're using, it now includes Sparky Anderson and Tommy Lasorda as "great" managers, but not Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa. And I don't think that makes sense.
I think Torre would have done fine with the 2001 Diamondbacks and 2002 Angels, but perhaps not the 2003 Marlins. The former squads were full of veterans, and I think Torre is at his best handling veteran players of all skill levels and bringing out their best. McKeon had a special chemistry with the young 2003 Marlins, and though Torre might have been able to do it, there seemed to be something unusual at work there.
Dodort said:
"Each teams chemistry is different, and Torre was perfect for the late 90’s Yankees."
I can't argue with that at all. Now, Dodort, out of those Yankees teams of the late 90's, only 4 players remain: Jeter, Mo, Posada and Bernie. I'd say the more recent Yankees presented a whole different slew of challenges for Torre than the teams that consisted of O'Neill, Brosius, Tino, Knobby, Cone, Wells, El Dugue, and Pettitte. Think about the quality and depth of those late '90's teams. Clearly they were some of the greatest teams ever assembled. Torre did well with them, he guided them well and perhaps he believed the same methodology from the past would work on the newer Yankees. It didn't work. A stronger baseball mind may have done better.
And for the record, I believe this year's team is seasoned and stronger than any team we've had since 2001. Torre's style, mized with Pena and Bowa, will work to make this team play to their potential. I am very confident that the 2006 team will go to the World Series.
Steiner, you said I called Torre "mediocre" not terrible, and I corrected you on that. Let's move on.
I never said La Russa wasn't great (I in fact called him "great"), but I withrew his name from the "great" list for the sake of *this* conversation (because you naroowly focused on La Russa's postseason record alone in comparing him to Torre, whose record is certainly far superior). Again, read what I write, not what you think I wrote.
Sorry about the misquote. You think he's good, but not great. Fair enough.
But what do you mean by this:
"A stronger baseball mind would have done better."
Or this:
"Torre has not exhibited the same type of passion or interest in the game or his job."
What would Bobby Valentine--a manager you say you would have liked in the job--have done differently?
If I would blame anyone for the failings of the last five years, beside of course the principle culprits, the players, it would be the front office, who changed the winning formula by changing the type of player on the team. Praise what worked in the glory days all you will, but you can't turn this team into a small ball club (nor should you), and you don't have a bullpen five deep to close games in the sixth inning. Those are the differences, and Torre can't change that.
Oh Adam, come on. You make so many claims, so often in tension with one another, that it's not easy to discern the "plain meaning" of all your posts. I apologize if I make a reasonable inference now and again and it turns out to be ill-suited to your current position.
Concrete question: It's late May, 2005. Bernie is struggling. What would you have done with him that Torre didn't?
So, a team like the great Yankees of the mid-late 1990's (with a game-shortening bullpen and a terrific hitting bunch in the line-up) should be equally credited to Gene "Stick" Michael-- the man who rightly brought in O'Neill, Cone, Key and ushered in farmhands like Jeter, Mo, Bernie and Posada. What if Torre managed the 1995 Yankees? Would he have gone as far as Showalter? Would he have beaten Seattle? Did Torre inherit Showalter's masterpiece?
See how easily this conversation can dissolve into the area of hypotheticals and unquantifiables? In my mind we have already passed that point. You will not convince me with your "rationale" and I won't do the same for you. In the end, a lot of what we're saying here is opinion. There are stats, records, etc. to quote but no one here can be so scientific about this to be correct.
So because you don't read my posts clearly, it's my fault that they're not clear to you?
As for your concrete question, my point in bringing up Bernie's downward spiral was that it should have *never* reached that point in the first place. A hands-on manager who isn't afraid to bruis a person's ego would make a demand of the front office for a move to get a new CF. What would I do in late May 2005? That's the point where there were no real options on the table. Your concrete question is a strawman.
If that is your point--that it should have never reached that point with Bernie--then Torre's quote is irrelevant. This is what I mean by you being unclear. I only used it because you seemed to put it out there as a concrete example of a Torre mistake, that you thought he should have said something like "We need to do something about Bernie" and was in denial. Is that an unreasonable reading?
But the real mistake, you say, is that Torre did move more forcefully to replace Bernie in the off-season. I guess that may be true, but we really don't know. He was certainly willing to embarrass Bernie mid-season by throwing Melky then Bubba then Lawton then Bubba out there, so I don't think it's an easy assumption. And, the front office went pretty hard after Beltran for awhile, and I believe there was talk of Kotsay as well.
It's intersting, because I would argue that Torre's unwillingness to stick with Bernie was a tactical mistake that cost the Yankees last season. It would have been better to replace him in the off-season, true, but it seems like a stretch to blame Torre for that when everyone knew he had lost a few steps and they did make several attempts to replace him.
Again, I must clarify what I said before, which is beginning to make me doubt my command of the english language. I said earlier that *after* our terrible slump at the beginning of last season, George Steinbrenner asked Joe Torre and Brian Cashman together "What do you guys need to get this team to the World Series?" In reply, Torre said "we have all the players we need." To me, that's evidence that at no time did Torre ever complain beforehand that Bernie was a liability, and I guarantee you that if he did make such a comment, Cashman and Steinbrenner would have taken him very seriously. Therefore, Torre's quote is absolutely relevant.
You assume Torre made the call for Melky Cabrera. From what I read, at the time, that was Cashman's decison. So, Torre didn't show any "willingness to embarras Bernie" in that regard.
Tactical errors like that (failing to replace the defensive liability that was Bernie before the season) cost wins and ultimately cost championships. If you want the stats to prove that, I'll gladly email them to you.
And the 1996 team was far different from the 1995 team. They added Duncan, Girardi, Gooden, Cecil, Straw, Hayes, Nelson, Weathers, Tino, Rogers and probably a few more. That was not an easy team to manage. Of all the championships of all the managers you mentioned, I think 1996 was the masterpiece, matched only by the 1988 Dodgers.
I'm going to google the follwing terms and let you know if I come up with anything: "rowdy, 1996, Yankees, clubhouse, Strawberry." If any stories come up that show Torre put out fires I will tip my cap to you. FYI, the 1998 team was a masterpiece.
Cashman told Torre to start Melky in centerfield? I agree that Cashman made the roster move, just as he traded for Lawton, but I don't think anyone tells Joe who to play.
Okay, so you take it as "evidence that at no time did Torre ever complain beforehand that Bernie was a liability..." Do you really believe that? I don't. Hell, we don't even know for sure if Joe said that to Cashman. And even if he did say it, it was a reasonable response at the time, not necessarily indicating that he thought Bernie was fine out in center.
Haha. Yeah, FYI. Now who's bending words? I meant managerial masterpiece, which is why I included the 1988 Dodgers, which were far from pretty to look at.
If you do find google matches for that, I would say I lose the argument.
Steiner said:
"Hell, we don't even know for sure if Joe said that (Bernie is fine) to Cashman."
Exactly, we don't know who said what to whom at what time or ever! Now you've made my point, we've gone into the realm of unknowns. I offered my reading of the facts to facilitate a point for you, not to prove one on my own.
Let's leave these answers to Buster Olney's next book.
P.S. you are good at misdirecting the argument, I'll give you that. Torre managing the 1996 Yankees was never an argument showing he lacked greatness. I'm saying that Torre's lack of greatness is apparent in the 2001-2005 era. Lack of greatness doesn't mean he sucks, it just means he's not "great."
Just so there's no doubt here, this is a passionate argument between two life-long friends. I would never put forth anywhere near the amount of energy here if I didn't enjoy the debate and if I didn't enjoy the competition. I tip my cap to you sir for being a true-Yankee-blue supporter of a man you really admire. One day, we'll have a similar discussion about Harry Truman and I will be the one defending a man's legacy.
I put forward the 1996 season as evidence of his greatness, and in response to your question of "Did Torre inherit Showalter's masterpiece?" That's it.
Your most recent point--the one you meant to "facilitate"--was that Torre didn't move forcefully enough to replace Bernie, not that we're into the realm of unknowns. In fact, the two arguments are in direct tension.
The point about arguing hypos--made several posts earlier--is a good one, but it hasn't stopped either of us from continuing to lay it on. :)
This is now a simply a trial of wills, having nothing to do with Joe Torre whatsoever.
Sweet Mary, again, there's just so much here. You posed the 1996 team as an example of Torre's greatness *after* I made the rhetorical comment "Did Torre inherit Showalter's masterpiece?" So, no, i didn't make a rhetorical remark in response to your claim about Torre and the '96 Yanks.
As for that other crap you mentioned, just remember that I love you like a brother.
Adam, re-read this, focusing on the words "in-response to". I brought up 1996 as a response to your Stick comment.
"I put forward the 1996 season as evidence of his greatness, and in response to your question of 'Did Torre inherit Showalter's masterpiece?' That's it."
54 comments! Back off! By the way, who the hell is Joe Torre?
To borrow a phrase from Dodort:
"Well, there's three hours of my life I won't get back."
To steal another phrase:
"There are no winners, no losers...only casualties."
Goodnight. Tomorrow we can start anew...on a different topic.
Bring in Proctor when the score is 3-3. Brilliant tactician.
Didn't see that post coming.
Of course, Joe realizes that Proctor will likely have an important role to play this season, so he's going to get him into meaningful games early. It's the long term strategy he's best at. The forest isn't normally viewable from amid the trees.
I'm glad Scott Proctor's long-term role is more important than winning the game that's in your hands. Sure, we left a lot of runners on base all night as well, but let's keep congratulating Torre on being a long-term thinker that loses close games.
How was it in our hands? It was 3-3 going into the bottom of the ninth on the road.
Yes, I'm sorry. Mariano River is only the greatest relief pitcher in the history of the game. Oh, and don't we have an All-Star lineup that consists of several players that can go yard at any given at-bat? Nope, we we're "on the road" as you say! We *never* win tied games on the road!
Good use of sarcasm.
Would you have gone with Mo in hope of sending the game to extra innings?
Why not go to Mo? So we can give ourselves another shot at scoring (and winnging)? No, Mo should be kept in a glass case until October.
Think about this- you have a quality start from your #2 pitcher and you're implying that going into extra innings would not be worthwhile? What is the difference between winning a close game in April v. September? Nothing, except the sense of urgency that follows a team that doesn't try to win close games early in the season but is now left trying to stay far enough ahead of Boston to win the division. And this is typical Torre in that sense, where he *has* to use Mo in those Sept games to win the AL East and by the time the postseason rolls around, he's tired (a la 2004). Brilliant indeed.
Again, why the exaggeration and sarcasm? I'm obviously not saying we can't win close games on the road and I'm obviously not saying we should keep Mo in a glass case.
But I don't think it was worth putting him in last night, especially when you had Proctor available, who could gain from the experience. Better to find out what he's got now than later. If anything, Joe could have let Farnsworth go into the ninth, since he only threw 2/3 in the eighth.
But I don't think it makes sense to start using Rivera in such situations so early in the season. Think about it: Rivera pitches the ninth and gets out of it. Yankees score in the top of the tenth. Now who do you put in? Does Mo go the tenth, too? Maybe, maybe not. You might go to Proctor anyway. What Joe did makes tactical sense as well as strategic sense. He knew Oakland would have to bat if the Yankees scored anyway, and would use Mo in that save situation. Any way you slice it, if the Yankees took the lead Oakland was getting another at bat. That's where Mo would come in.
Before we go any further, what do the rest of you guys think? I saw Garbo jump in at some point early on...
What Torre did was right out of the manager textbook. Tied on the road, managers always wait until the get a lead to put their closer in. It's not just Torre, every manager in the league would have witheld Mo. Plus, as great as he is, I'd rather be ere on the side of not using Mo, so he can hopefully have a lighter role this season. I generally agree with Mr. Steiner that you want to be able to find out early who in your bullpen can be trusted (although I would have considered leaving Farnsworth in). My biggest problem is the fact that I never realized that our bullpen was so bad that Scott Proctor was the logical choice in the situation.
I would have brought farnsworth in; you don't bring mo in unless its a save situation this early in the season.
I don't blame torre for using proctor; we're going to need him for decent innings this year and his confidence is high because he had a good spring.
Post a Comment
<< Home